[ethic]

So, are keys based on the root note of the chord and not the actual individual notes? I mean, if I have a progression that's something like C, B, Gm, F7, C (just made up) would that be in the key of C even though B, Gm and F7 contain notes that aren't part of the key? I mean, do you just determine what scale those root notes are in, and that's the key?

Or does it matter what chord the piece resolves to? Just from Kirk's lessons, I know that something in the key of Am doesn't actually have to start with that chord. But, at least in one lesson I can think of, the piece does end with it. So, what exactly determines what key something is in?

[Black&Blue]

Originally Posted by ethic

So, are keys based on the root note of the chord and not the actual individual notes? I mean, if I have a progression that's something like C, B, Gm, F7, C (just made up) would that be in the key of C even though B, Gm and F7 contain notes that aren't part of the key? I mean, do you just determine what scale those root notes are in, and that's the key?

Or does it matter what chord the piece resolves to? Just from Kirk's lessons, I know that something in the key of Am doesn't actually have to start with that chord. But, at least in one lesson I can think of, the piece does end with it. So, what exactly determines what key something is in?

I think the chord sequence you made up is a bad example as it jumps through so many keys in such an unpredictable manner.It sounds really dissonant and would be hard to make a catchy tune from. Most chord progressions follow quite predictable patterns and rely on particular resolutions to produce their effect ( such as G7-C). Furthermore modulations from the usual key ( at least the ones that people want to listen to again follow fairly well described patterns - such as changing to a relative minor key . I find it easier to think of the home key of a piece and then think of any modulations separately.

As far as a progression beginning and ending in C major goes you could make a progression like this: Cmaj, Amin, Bbmaj, Cmaj.
That progression begins and ends in Cmajor but actually uses only chords from Fmajor so I would put it in F major ( I think it could also be described as Fmyxolidian- but here I am at the limit of my knowledge.

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by Black&Blue

I find it easier to think of the home key of a piece and then think of any modulations separately.

As far as a progression beginning and ending in C major goes you could make a progression like this: Cmaj, Amin, Bbmaj, Cmaj.
That progression begins and ends in Cmajor but actually uses only chords from Fmajor so I would put it in F major ( I think it could also be described as Fmyxolidian- but here I am at the limit of my knowledge.

B&B. Good point about thinking of the home key and modulations to other keys separately. That's how a lot of symphonies are thought of. Beethoven's symphony in C minor, for example, contains a whole lot of keys but C minor is always the 'home' key.

BTW - That chord sequence you wrote isn't in F major. It's not only the chords being used that tell you the key - it always depends on which one of those chords has been chosen as the key chord (tonal centre). As F isn't present, it can't be in the key of F.

If C is emphasised as the key chord then it's in the key of C major - or C Mixolydian in this case, if you want to be precise about the mode too.

BTW, Welcome to the forum (although you've been here since May)

[Black&Blue]

Thanks for the correction Fretsource- I had meant to write C Myxolydian but got lost in the mechanics of typing.( Well thats MY excuse). Your broader point about the sequence that I wrote being in C- did interest me though. I find this part hard to understand- but I would have thought that the chords would have dictated a key signature of F (or Dmin) as they are the only keys that contain all those chords. I am inclined to think of C Myxolydian as a subset of F.
However a friend tells me that the two ideas have "nothing to do with each other". So this is where the ideas get a bit slippery. I'd certainly be interested in your comments on this.

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by Black&Blue

Thanks for the correction Fretsource- I had meant to write C Myxolydian but got lost in the mechanics of typing.( Well thats MY excuse). Your broader point about the sequence that I wrote being in C- did interest me though. I find this part hard to understand- but I would have thought that the chords would have dictated a key signature of F (or Dmin) as they are the only keys that contain all those chords. I am inclined to think of C Myxolydian as a subset of F.
However a friend tells me that the two ideas have "nothing to do with each other". So this is where the ideas get a bit slippery. I'd certainly be interested in your comments on this.

Although the chords can provide a good clue to the key of a song, the only thing that can really tell you the key is by hearing the key note and the chord built upon it. That's what a key is. It's a central note (and chord) around which a bunch of notes and chords can be arranged to produce 'tonal' music
Whatever that note and chord is - THAT'S the key.

So if I write a song with 3 chords: Am Dm and Em - and I play my song in such a way that everybody can hear that Aminor is the home chord that ends every verse, then the key of the song is A minor.
The key of this song has nothing to do with C major even though those three chords also appear in the key of C major. Your friend is correct. It's just a coincidence that they have the same notes. My song can't possibly be in C major because there's no C chord there acting as the central point or tonal centre. And even if there was a C major in the song, I chose A minor for that job of being the key centre, so the key can only be A minor.

As you pointed out, F major and C Mixolydian have the same notes (FGABbCDEF & CDEFGABbC) but there's a huge difference between them, and that difference is that they have different KEY CENTRES. In F major all those notes are made to relate to the key centre F and in C Mixolydian they're all made to relate to the key centre C. The fact that both scales have the same notes is about as significant as the words TAN and ANT having the same letters.

BTW - a good example of C Mixolydian is the end 'na na na' section of Hey Jude. The whole song is in C major using all the expected chords then it switches to C mixolydian C - Bb - F - C repeated for ages.
Despite having the same chords as a song in F major you can hear clearly that F isn't the main chord - it's C.
The bottom line is that what determines the key is the key centre, not the chords. But if you can't hear which chord is functioning as the key centre, then the chord arrangement provides a good clue.

[Black&Blue]

So if I were writing down a melody based on that progression I should use the key signature of C and show the flatted B bar by bar as it cropped up? I guess this is one of those areas where proper music written on ledger lines with a clef and all really does carry much more info than tab.

[carol m]

I've only just latched onto this thread and am finding it really useful.

I personally 'find' the key to a song by finding out what the melody notes are (by experimenting with playing along while listening). Then I know what key it's in because I can see if there are sharps and flats and which they are etc. This also tells me if and when a capo is being used because if it sounds like it's in Bb (or some other unfriendly key) you can be sure they are using a capo.

Mostly the songs are in C or G and +/- a capo, and then usually follow the I IV V - or a I IV V7 with the occasional vi or similar. However, I reallise that I am relying on reasoning and not my ears. Is this stopping me from developing my 'ear' do you think?

I'm hoping that with practice my ears will take over and I will get those 'special powers' that I long for

[wcostley]

carol m
I'll be interested in hearing what Fretsource has to say about how you find the key, because with the little I have learned, your way seems like it should be right, but in reading through all of the 3 pages on this subject, I'm in way over my head on the subject.
Skip............

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by wcostley

carol m
I'll be interested in hearing what Fretsource has to say about how you find the key, because with the little I have learned, your way seems like it should be right, but in reading through all of the 3 pages on this subject, I'm in way over my head on the subject.
Skip............

Hi Skip

Carol's method will get you the key 99% of the time. Sometimes, though, the notes suggest a certain key but it's actually in a different key.

I've uploaded a short midi file of a well-known song that shows what I mean.

Scarborough Fair:

The melody notes are
DDAFEFED
ACDCABGA
DDDCAAGFEC
DAGFEDCD

And the chords used are Dm,F,C and G

Not a single sharp or flat in sight. So the notes by themselves suggest that this song is in the key of C major.

Listening to it though tells you what the key actually is. Listen to the last note 'D'. It has a restful final quality to it that tells you that this is the key note . So the key MUST be D something. The first and last chords too are D minor - which really nails it. The key can only be D minor.

Listen to the quality of the song. It has a soft melancholy feel that is typical of a song in a minor key. It certainly doesn't have the strong happy go lucky sound that we associate with MAJOR keys. (e.g. Happy Birthday - You can't get more major sounding than that)

So the key of Scarborough Fair (this version) is D minor.

But the key of D minor has a key signature of 1 flat, which is B flat, yet this song contains B natural and no B flat.

It doesn't matter. The key is still D minor as can be clearly heard, especially at the last note (D) and chord (D minor).

The reason for that B natural is because the song, instead of using notes of the usual D minor scale (DEFGABbCD), is using the notes of a closely related scale called the Dorian Mode - or D Dorian in this case.

The notes of D Dorian are DEFGABCD - exactly the same notes as C major (CDEFGABC) - but, as you can hear, that's just a misleading coincidence in this case, because D is clearly the keynote and D minor is the key chord, so the key of the song is D minor (or D Dorian to be more precise than is necessary.)

[carol m]

That's really interesting Fretscource, and thanks for taking so much trouble. I'm pretty sure I would have picked SF as being minor (or at least having minor chords in it). Maybe even modal (although my level of theoretical knowledge would by then have been at its limit).

However, probably in reality I would have played around to find chords that would 'fit' and hopefully come up with a Dminor (being one of the minor chords that I know) and then see what else sounded right.

If I 'fail' with a song I usually either give up, fill in the missing chords with a couple of melody notes, or look up some tabs - mainly because actually knowing what the key really is, is usually not what I'm trying to find out - and yes, I'm going to be thinking of that now......and my ears thank you

Thanks also for this whole thread, it certainly helps to have such practical advice that is linked to how music sounds (instead of just how it appears on a page).

[wcostley]

Thanks Fretsource,
The easy to follow explanation you gave with the all whole notes and the midi of Scarborough Fair has given me something that I can follow and get more understanding, everything else I had read on this thread was way over my head, I haven't been able to develope an ear for chords or even play them fluidly yet, although I seem to have a decent ear for picking out tunes and single note picking them to where they sound right to me, they're mostly real old tunes that have been in my memory for many decades.
(for some reason most all of them come out in the key of G, that just seems to be the way I naturally hear them in my head)
Thanks again for putting me a step closer to understanding that all songs or tunes don't necessarily follow absolutely the way the scales as listed in your Circle of Fifths.
Skip...............