[ethic]

So, are keys based on the root note of the chord and not the actual individual notes? I mean, if I have a progression that's something like C, B, Gm, F7, C (just made up) would that be in the key of C even though B, Gm and F7 contain notes that aren't part of the key? I mean, do you just determine what scale those root notes are in, and that's the key?

Or does it matter what chord the piece resolves to? Just from Kirk's lessons, I know that something in the key of Am doesn't actually have to start with that chord. But, at least in one lesson I can think of, the piece does end with it. So, what exactly determines what key something is in?

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by ethic

So, nothing I said was right?

I wouldn't go that far, Ethic

That chord progression you made up (C, B, Gm, F7, C) demonstrates how chords have to relate to each other to give the listener a feeling of key.

Yours starts with C so, unconsciously, my mind is prepared to accept that this is the key chord but suddenly B comes along and my feeling of key goes out the window. If your third chord was again C then my feeling that the key is C would be restored and I might consider that your B was an interesting splash of colour.
But - no. Your third chord was Gm which is also foreign, not only to C but also to B so that change sounds a bit strange too (but kind of interesting). And my original feeling that C is the key has gone for good.

So far no pattern is emerging that could establish a feeling of key centre. The next chord F7 is foreign again (to C) but at least it follows Gm well because those two chords are the first two in your progression that actually belong to the same key: G minor. But any thoughts that G minor might be the key are quickly dispelled with the re-arrival of C which is foreign to the key of G minor and sounds strange now - not like it sounded at the beginning.

So that progression has no key. That doesn't mean it's a bad progression - it just means it's not a TONAL progression. (i.e. keyless)

[Sano]

That works for me, thanks for your explanations Fretsource.


Uuh, I just noticed link to 'selecting chords from a melody' thread...tomorrow!

[Kirk Lorange]

I like to think of the 'key' as a family of notes and chords. The notes are the underlying scale, with the 'key note' being the 1 of the scale, and the chords are the 7 chords generated by the scale. So when I'm determining the key, I listen to the chords mostly. After a while of really listening to music, you get to hear the I-IV-V. They tell me what key I'm in.

For example: C - E7 - F - Fm - D7 - G7 - C

Knowing the related chords for all keys (which you should learn) I see that C, F and G7 and figure it must be the key of C, but I also see the E7, Fm and D7 which are not related to C. However, I can HEAR that F functioning as a IV chord and (especially) HEAR that G7 functioning as a V chord ... therefore I am indeed in the key of C.

As Fretsource says, chord progressions can use any old chords but you'll find that the weird ones don't get much airplay because they just don't sound very musical. Writers don't write them, producers don't record them, radios don't play them.

[Sano]

Originally Posted by Kirk Lorange

I like to think of the 'key' as a family of notes and chords. The notes are the underlying scale, with the 'key note' being the 1 of the scale, and the chords are the 7 chords generated by the scale. So when I'm determining the key, I listen to the chords mostly. After a while of really listening to music, you get to hear the I-IV-V. They tell me what key I'm in.

Thanks Kirk for coming in. The 3rd last and 2nd last sentences is where I'm trying to get to. It's quite the step! But, you and Fretsource are partly responsible for a Eureka moment. Although, I'm still not getting my head 'round the Fm in your example, which has G#/Ab and C scale doesn't have any #s or bs.


Cheers,
Iain

[Fretsource]

I also like seeing the key as a family - or a family run company, like the Mafia.

In the C 'majore' family, the Godfather is the I (key) chord (C) and the IV (F) and V (G) are senior members of the family. Those three hold the real power. The ii, iii and vi (Dm, Em and Am are of 'minor' importance but real family members nonetheless. The vii (B dim) is of 'diminshed' ability and a bit of a disappointment (Fredo?). He rarely gets anything to do.

Outside of the seven immediate family members there are some more distant relatives and associates, such as, D7, E7 and Fm, that are trusted (to an extent) and have very useful skills. They often get called upon for specialised 'jobs'.
Trusted or not, they have to be watched carefully, though, otherwise they could seriously damage the family from within, especially if there's too many of them.
Now, I feel like digging out my old Godfather video.

[knight46]

Hay Fretsource,
I tink dat dey may make youse a deal youse can't refuse, but nice analogy!!

[fly135]

I'm slowing beginning to get a grasp of this stuff. It seems that you can listen to the bass line and get a feel for the dominate note, which I believe will give you the key. You can pluck different notes on the guitar until you find one that just fits in when plucked over and over, and that might be the root of your key.

Feel free to rip apart any misconceptions about what I said.

[wcostley]

Not that I understand any of it yet but I love the Mafia anology, I'm sure that will stick with me forever.
Skip

[Sano]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

I also like seeing the key as a family - or a family run company, like the Mafia.

In the C 'majore' family, the Godfather is the I (key) chord (C) and the IV (F) and V (G) are senior members of the family. Those three hold the real power. The ii, iii and vi (Dm, Em and Am are of 'minor' importance but real family members nonetheless. The vii (B dim) is of 'diminshed' ability and a bit of a disappointment (Fredo?). He rarely gets anything to do.

Outside of the seven immediate family members there are some more distant relatives and associates, such as, D7, E7 and Fm, that are trusted (to an extent) and have very useful skills. They often get called upon for specialised 'jobs'.
Trusted or not, they have to be watched carefully, though, otherwise they could seriously damage the family from within, especially if there's too many of them.
Now, I feel like digging out my old Godfather video.

So the Fm (along with the D7 and E7) delivers the horses head? Sort of like embellishment...or effects to add some 'colour', moving from (in Kirk's example) IV to V chords?

[starsailor]

It's all Goodfellas

[Fretsource]

That's exactly right, Sano, and I hereby promote you to Conslil...Consigl... Consigig... Legal Advisor to the family.

Those chords, D7, Fm and E7 add colour because they contain chromatic notes, i.e., notes that don't belong to the key. - which is exactly what the word 'chromatic' means- colour.

And just as colours depend heavily on their suroundings to look their best, chromatic notes do too, to sound their best. And that's now a completely different analogy.

Knowing how all notes relate to each other (which is basically what music theory is) allows the musician 'artist 'to combine them in all sorts of weird and wonderful ways.

[Sano]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

That's exactly right, Sano, and I hereby promote you to Conslil...Consigl... Consigig... Legal Advisor to the family.

Phew! It was either that or off me!

Seein' I'm having so much trouble hearing the music your explanations have helped me in visualising the elements of music theory. Thanks for indulging me with your patience.

[AX7221]

Originally Posted by Kirk Lorange

For example: C - E7 - F - Fm - D7 - G7 - C

Knowing the related chords for all keys (which you should learn) I see that C, F and G7 and figure it must be the key of C, but I also see the E7, Fm and D7 which are not related to C. However, I can HEAR that F functioning as a IV chord and (especially) HEAR that G7 functioning as a V chord ... therefore I am indeed in the key of C.

I just wanted to add something in. Even if a chord progression is played in the chromatic scale, and uses all 12 of the notes you still have a key chord (though it might be subtle and changing).

And New York is like the major scale so you can modulate to las vegas if you want (but its kinda somber over there)

[Sano]

Oh, ooh! The Mobs getting bigger.

I kind of chose NY and Vegas as representing different Familys, still using Fretsources' analogy. However, I built upon that and from Kirk's block of flats/apartment block/tenements imagery of the different scales, the cities representing each Mob Family. Each to their own, but this music business gets tougher and tougher. Lol

[jimmyzowens]

you guys crack me up we went from keys, to remotes, to remote remotes, back to keys LM AO