[felixdcat]

Hey everybody!

Let's say in the background I have C, F, G playing (I-IV-V)...

If I wanted to solo over C, I can only play 1-3-5 because it's C major. If I wanted to add a 7th, then the 'background' would have to play C7, right?

[Kirk Lorange]

I actually hear an Em7 between the F and A7 ... that's where the B comes from.

[scotty_b]

Here are a couple of examples of using 'outside' notes over chords.
The first one is really only notable in terms of this discussion for the first line I played.
The second is somewhat longer, and is played over 'rhythm changes'. There are elements of non-chord and non-scale tones throughout.
I must apologise for the bass on the track if it sounds strange. I recorded this a few years ago, and when I pulled the file back up into Cubase the bass seemed to have this 'warble' to it.
From my perspective, the strength of any line is how it resolves to the chord it concludes on. Targetting chord tones at the end of a phrase allows for the tension to be resolved, and that works for me. Some genres allow for much greater tension, and therefore lack of resolution (fusion/metal) but musically that does not work for me.

[scotty_b]

Originally Posted by Kirk Lorange

I actually hear an Em7 between the F and A7 ... that's where the B comes from.

Well that would explain it then - I was going by memory with the melody - couldn't think of the harmony in my head.

[carol m]

This is such a good thread (and I've only just found it)......out of my way, Life, I have work to do

[hb]

Whew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is like Trignomithry for a 3rd grader!
hb

[carol m]

Originally Posted by hb

Whew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is like Trignomithry for a 3rd grader!
hb

Much more fun

[MalcolmAmos]

Look forward to Scotty's examples ....

If I wanted to solo over C, I can only play 1-3-5 because it's C major. If I wanted to add a 7th, then the 'background' would have to play C7, right?

I am not sure what you are asking....... With C F G7 playing as background harmony. I think you are asking -- over the C chord I can only play a C note. Then you ask; "If I wanted to add a 7th, then the background would have to play C7, right?"

Not really. We don't have to be that exact. Without getting too deep here are some of your solo choices - as I see them.

Over C F G7 loop

Any combination of notes from the C Major scale could be played over the entire progression.

Any combination of notes from the C Major pentatonic scale could be played over the entire progression.

Any combination of the C Blues scale could be played over the entire progression.

And you do not have to use all the notes of those scale or play them in any certain order -- play the good ones and leave the bad ones out -- LOL -- sorry about that there are no bad notes as long as you stay in scale, any of them will work.

Much more you could do and I look forward to Scotty's examples. Here is an easy improv "exercise" you might give some thought to.

Start with the C Blues scale. Go up the scale - 6th string to the first string. Then come back down using the C major pentatonic scale (come back down without the blue notes). Back up using the C Major (full 7 note) scale and come home with the C Blues scale.

Then back up using the C Blues scale to the first blue note, jump back to the C note on the 6th string and come forward with another C Blues scale to the second blue note. Come home using whatever you think fits. Mix and match ...... get used to using these three scales and moving between them. Have fun.

[scotty_b]

Look forward to Scotty's examples ....

There were a couple of examples I posted in here, and then from memory this conversation lead to me writing this
An introduction to playing 'outside' the chords

[MalcolmAmos]

Look forward to Scotty's examples ....

I am not sure what you are asking.......

With C F G7 playing as background harmony. I think you are asking -- over the C chord I can only play a C note. Then you ask; "If I wanted to add a 7th, then the background would have to play C7, right?"

EDIT -- ARE YOU BASS GUITAR? Just thought of that, if you are what you are asking fits with the bass guitar. A 1-3-5 or a 1-5 loop over each chord does make since. Now if you are not Bass that would become boring and the following would apply.

Not really. We don't have to be that exact. Without getting too deep here are some of your solo choices - as I see them.

Over C F G7 loop

Any combination of notes from the C Major scale could be played over the entire progression.

Any combination of notes from the C Major pentatonic scale could be played over the entire progression.

Any combination of the C Blues scale could be played over the entire progression.

And you do not have to use all the notes of those scale or play them in any certain order -- play the good ones and leave the bad ones out -- LOL -- sorry about that there are no bad notes as long as you stay in scale, any of them will work.

Much more you could do and I look forward to Scotty's examples. Here is an easy improv "exercise" you might give some thought to.

Start with the C Blues scale. Go up the scale - 6th string to the first string. Then come back down using the C major pentatonic scale (come back down without the blue notes). Back up using the C Major (full 7 note) scale and come home with the C Blues scale.

Then back up using the C Blues scale to the first blue note, jump back to the C note on the 6th string and come forward with another C Blues scale to the second blue note. Come home using whatever you think fits. Mix and match ...... get used to using these three scales and moving between them. Have fun

[st_jo]

ok, Scotty_b
"a long time to develop the ability to step in and out of keys when I improvise and make it sound like a strong musical line"
i'm on that journey at this moment. well, at THIS moment i am at work, but later at home i will journey once again.
Scotty..... any shortcuts on that journey? i'm not adverse to lenghty trips only mine is nearly 20 years long and the scenery should change more rapidly in my opinion.

[scotty_b]

I guess I could recommend the lesson I put together as an introduction to playing outside the chords.
To be honest with you, whilst I have spent a considerable amount of time in the past studying harmony, scales and modes, most of my non-diatonic playing consists of me using the chromatic scale between arpeggio tones. I will play some very 'wrong' notes against almost anything and bring them back in by landing on a chord tone.
Something else that makes a big difference is the conviction with which one plays a line. An outside idea, played with attitude, can be carried off far better than a consonant line that is unsure of itself.
Play it like you mean it. Well I think that is a good thing to do with everything we play anyhow.