[shredder567]

a reliable guitarist told me that all u need to know fr playin lead is a good knowledge of major scales...so if i learn da major sclae in all da five positions n then be creative with those notes , will it b enuf ?? it sounds nice to me cuz i can change da key by movin up or down the frets.....am i right???

one more thing...there are millions of amazing guitarists in this world n surely all of em cant have absolute knowledge about all scales cuz from wat i can make out it needs a decent amount of intellect ( which i think i lack ) ..then how do these guys reach at a level where they can improvise n make one hell of a solo...surely there has to b a way out

i hope this is not misinterpreted as me tryin to take an easy way out ( i rlly work hard at guitarin) cuz i'm really curious to find a way through which i can improvise decently wen my buddy gives me any kinda chord progression n not js be stuck in a box...thnx

[Kirk Lorange]

Beginning on whatever note is irrelevant, Fong. So long as you're playing lines over any chord within the key using the notes from the I chord, you'll be playing the Ionian mode over all of them. I understand what you're saying, and logically, yes, you're playing lines with #4s or b7s when playing over the IV and V chords respectively (therefore Lydian/Mixolydian), but in the context of the piece of music, you're just playing the Ionian mode.

Playing "modally" is a whole other kettle of fish.

Monk? we need your expert way of explaining this!

[Fretsource]

This ties in with another thread where I've been discussing something similar with Monk and Scotty.
Kirk is right. In tonal music, technically, you're still playing in the Ionian mode throughout, because the mode is determined by the KEY and note set of the song, not the ROOT of the current chord.
This is the original use of modes from medieval melodies up to the modal jazz explorations of Miles Davis and his contemporaries and successors.
The fact that F Lydian has the same notes as C Ionian is just a coincidence. But it's a coincidence that has been exploited in the rock world because, as Monk and Scotty pointed out in that other thread, it offers a convenient way of planning out your path through the chord tones.
The downside of that approach is that, without enough information, it can lead guitarists into misunderstanding what modes actually are, and into thinking that they're playing in a mode, when in fact they're not, or at least not the mode they think it is.

It's a bit like using a capo. If playing alone, I can play a song in G and I can then stick a capo on fret 3 and play it as before. It's perfectly fine and very convenient to think of it still in G, especially if I'm reading from a chord sheet, but I know I'm actually now playing in Bb.

It's the same with modes. Thinking of our notes as belonging to F Lydian when we play over F major in the key of C may offer some help in knowing where we are and where we're going - but it's not actually F Lydian at all, it's C Ionian.

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

This ties in with another thread where I've been discussing something similar with Monk and Scotty.
Kirk is right. In tonal music, technically, you're still playing in the Ionian mode throughout, because the mode is determined by the KEY and note set of the song, not the ROOT of the current chord.
This is the original use of modes from medieval melodies up to the modal jazz explorations of Miles Davis and his contemporaries and successors.
The fact that F Lydian has the same notes as C Ionian is just a coincidence. But it's a coincidence that has been exploited in the rock world because, as Monk and Scotty pointed out in that other thread, it offers a convenient way of planning out your path through the chord tones.
The downside of that approach is that, without enough information, it can lead guitarists into misunderstanding what modes actually are, and into thinking that they're playing in a mode, when in fact they're not, or at least not the mode they think it is.

It's a bit like using a capo. If playing alone, I can play a song in G and I can then stick a capo on fret 3 and play it as before. It's perfectly fine and very convenient to think of it still in G, especially if I'm reading from a chord sheet, but I know I'm actually now playing in Bb.

It's the same with modes. Thinking of our notes as belonging to F Lydian when we play over F major in the key of C may offer some help in knowing where we are and where we're going - but it's not actually F Lydian at all, it's C Ionian.

Fret--

I get all this. This makes sense. Aside from the fact that modern folk and rock have stolen or misconstrued the concept, what name do we give what we're hearing? It may be strictly speaking the Ionian mode, but we definitely hear something different when we play the major scale intervals from a different starting point other than the root.

Steve

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by solidwalnut

Fret--

I get all this. This makes sense. Aside from the fact that modern folk and rock have stolen or misconstrued the concept, what name do we give what we're hearing? It may be strictly speaking the Ionian mode, but we definitely hear something different when we play the major scale intervals from a different starting point other than the root.

Steve

Hi Steve, the effect you're referring to is a tonal rather than a modal effect. In the key of C, if you play the notes of the C scale based on the note F (over the chord F) you're hearing subdominant harmony, i.e., the IV chord.
If there's no accompanying harmony, the notes you're playing can still imply that subdominant harmony and tonality. It's a very different effect to that created by the Lydian mode as it appears in modal music.

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

...It's a very different effect to that created by the Lydian mode as it appears in modal music.

Right, since you're saying that modal music requires the underlying key and the modal chord progressions that go with it. Correct?

[Fretsource]

That's right, Steve. But it's not so clear cut when the music is more chromatic and the key isn't so well defined or shifts around a bit. Monk mentioned that a guitarist might solo in the Dorian mode over a long vamp in D minor7. I don't remember if he mentioned what that chord is in relation to the key, (e.g. chord ii or vi or whatever) but it doesn't matter, because the operative word is "long". If it's long enough, the root of that chord will start to be heard as a new tonal centre. So in that case the solo really is in the Dorian mode, because it's relating to the new temporary key centre D and the true Dorian mode quality will be free to emerge. But if it's just passing through Dm7, then it won't cause us to lose sight of the original key so there would be no justification in calling the few notes of the solo during that brief Dm7 as belonging to the D Dorian mode.

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

That's right, Steve. But it's not so clear cut when the music is more chromatic and the key isn't so well defined or shifts around a bit. Monk mentioned that a guitarist might solo in the Dorian mode over a long vamp in D minor7. I don't remember if he mentioned what that chord is in relation to the key, (e.g. chord ii or vi or whatever) but it doesn't matter, because the operative word is "long". If it's long enough, the root of that chord will start to be heard as a new tonal centre. So in that case the solo really is in the Dorian mode, because it's relating to the new temporary key centre D and the true Dorian mode quality will be free to emerge. But if it's just passing through Dm7, then it won't cause us to lose sight of the original key so there would be no justification in calling the few notes of the solo during that brief Dm7 as belonging to the D Dorian mode.

That's seems very clear to me now, thanks. So tell me if this is correct: the chorus of the song Norwegian Wood, even though we hear it as Mixolydian is actually just Mixolydian in passing and not considered modal. But the song LA Woman might more correctly be caste as a Mixolydian modal rock song.

Steve

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by solidwalnut

That's seems very clear to me now, thanks. So tell me if this is correct: the chorus of the song Norwegian Wood, even though we hear it as Mixolydian is actually just Mixolydian in passing and not considered modal. But the song LA Woman might more correctly be caste as a Mixolydian modal rock song.

Steve

The intro and verses of Norwegian Wood are in D Mixolydian mode. The middle section "She asked me to stay..." is in D minor. It's a good example of a modal song containing different modes for different sections.
Another one is Hey Jude. It's strongly major throughout until the last "Na na na..." section which is Mixolydian. (C - Bb - F - C). As with Norwegian Wood, the change of mode is striking.
I'm ashamed to say I don't know LA Woman

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

...I'm ashamed to say I don't know LA Woman

You'd know it if you heard it. A classic by the Doors.

I see your hair is burnin'
Hills are filled with fire
If they say I never loved you
You know they are a liar

[monk]

Hi Folks,
I saw this earlier but didn't have time to answer before I had to head out to teach.

I will post a more in depth answer shortly, but now I'll try to clarify a few points in short form.

So What from Miles Davis' Kind Of Blue album is a 32 measure AABA tune. The A sections can be considered as either Dm7 or D Dorian. The B section is Ebm7 or Eb Dorian.

While the rhythm section played Dm7 (actually Dm quartal voicings), the soloists played using the D Dorian & Eb Dorian modes. So for 16 measures Miles chose his notes or crafted his melodies from D Dorian mode. Then he moved to Eb Dorian for 8 bars. Then back to D Dorian for 8 bars. Then he begins the next 32 bars.

What Kirk is saying is that he knows what key he's playing in, what the chords are and that's how he thinks. If C is playing and he begins his melody on a E note, he isn't thinking E Phrygian, he's thinking 3rd of C chord.

Hope this helps. I'll post more in depth shortly.

Regards,
Monk

[monk]

After writing two pages on Tonal and Modal Music, I paused and realised nobody wants to read a book. So, I'll cut to the chase.

There are two types of Western music: Tonal and Modal.

If you want to improvise in modal music, it's probably easier to use Modes.

If you want to improvise in tonal music, it's easier if you understand chords and key centers.

If you try to improvise in tonal music using modes, it'll be frustrating & difficult. More so than it needs to be.

If you try to improvise in modal music with chords, it will be just as easy as using modes.

If someone tells you need to learn modes in order to learn to play tonal music, they're either lying or they don't know what they're talking about.

More important than scales, modes or technique is the ability to hear. A musician has to be able to hear chord changes, melodies, chord quality, riffs & licks, key changes in order to REALLY play.

Regards,
Monk

[Kirk Lorange]

Ah, monk. I love it when you talk like that.

[hb]

After reading this entire post, I just have one question to the entire subject...........huh??????????????????
LOL!, hb

[gravitas]

I realize that I'm a little late here (and I'm kicking myself for missing a good conversation), but I've just been so damn busy. Wanted to clear up a few things from an ealier post:

Originally Posted by monk

There are 3 symmetrical scales.
Chromatic, Diminished & Whole Tone.

The Major, Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor are asymmetrical as are the Major and Minor Pentatonic.

There is a great deal of misunderstanding about how scales relate to learning an instrument. Scales are primarily a device to train a beginner how to develop dexterity and how to locate the notes in each key. Ask anyone who has ever had piano lessons. They first learn the 5 finger pattern in C. Then they add the rest of the scale and learn to play Mary Had a Little Lamb orTwinkle,Twinkle Little Star.

Modern rock is predominantly a scalar music. You can learn to play a lot of rock with pentatonic & diatonic scales. But if you ever decide to move into other types of music, scales won't cut it. Neither will modes.

The information needed to improvise competently and intelligently is found in scales but is not the scale itself.

Regards,
Monk

I shouldn't have termed scales all scales as symmetrical. I did mean that in a different sense, but you're right: musically, the intervals are different. What I meant was, you can build symmetrical patterns based on the simple framework of the major scale to get anywhere up and down the neck. Visually symmetrical, tonally, not.

And yeah, I know what you mean. But I tend to approach playing through chords- at least if I'm making a long line of straight eighths or sixteenths- by using the sounds I want to hear in that chord in their own scale. These target tones would receive emphasis on the beat, whereas other ones I'd play as passing tones, à la Joe Pass. In other words, if I'm playing through a chord with a lotta hair on it, say for example, AMin6/9#11, there are a lot of bases I want to cover. In this instance, I would find it easier to modify a Dorian Scale and give it that sharp eleven, so as to bring out the quality in the line, whereas other tones (the 13, the 9, minor 3, etc.) already naturally occur in that scale.

I just find it easier to revert to that muscle memory than to stretch my brain to fit all these extensions into odd fingerings. Of course, if I'm trying to produce a melody, those chord tones take the forefront in my mind. I won't go into too much detail, as I'd most likely be reiterating things that have been said and said again, but for the aesthetic of the music I want to play, I've invariably had to conclude that scales really free up your brain.

Here's a video of Pat Martino playing some of the stuff I'm talking about:

YouTube - pat martino

Anyway, sorry for posting a novel. You clearly know all this stuff already, I just didn't want to misrepresent myself. Keep on pickin' guys

[__tsidewinder__]

"After writing two pages on Tonal and Modal Music, I paused and realised nobody wants to read a book. So, I'll cut to the chase.

There are two types of Western music: Tonal and Modal.

If you want to improvise in modal music, it's probably easier to use Modes.

If you want to improvise in tonal music, it's easier if you understand chords and key centers.

If you try to improvise in tonal music using modes, it'll be frustrating & difficult. More so than it needs to be.

If you try to improvise in modal music with chords, it will be just as easy as using modes.

If someone tells you need to learn modes in order to learn to play tonal music, they're either lying or they don't know what they're talking about.

More important than scales, modes or technique is the ability to hear. A musician has to be able to hear chord changes, melodies, chord quality, riffs & licks, key changes in order to REALLY play."

So, I don't understand.

You say there are two types of music, tonal and modal. Now, as far as I can tell, all western music is modal music, although most use the ionian mode to make chord progressions. but what on earth is tonal music?

My guess, and I think it is wrong, is that tonal music is music played in the ionian mode. If that is the case, then I REALLY don't understand the rest of what you said.



"If you want to improvise in modal music, it's probably easier to use Modes.

If you want to improvise in tonal music, it's easier if you understand chords and key centers.

If you try to improvise in tonal music using modes, it'll be frustrating & difficult. More so than it needs to be.

If you try to improvise in modal music with chords, it will be just as easy as using modes."

So here you are basically saying that if you learn improf using chord tones, you've got all your bases covered. But then you say that

A. modal music is easier to improvise using modes.
B. Modal music is just as easy using chords

can't have it both ways. Which is actually easier?

Please explain what tonal music is, and how it is different from modal music.

P.S. I actually WOULD like to read a book on this stuff.