[hb]

I'm trying to grasp the circle of fifths and it's relationship to friendly chords but I can't seem to grasp one thing.....How can one chord (or should I say "scale") like the the 'C' , have exactly the same notes as the 'A minor"? I know a C scale starts on a C and an A scale starts on the A but in between they're the same. How can this be?
thanks,
hb

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by hb

I studied that link and I'm not sure if I'm absorbing this right or not. Please advise.....If I play the G major scale, I will start on G and play the whole notes up the scale with the exception of F#.

Nope. You play the major scale intervals. In the key of G major, the F# note is the seventh degree of the scale. You just continue to play the major scale intervals regardless of the note where you begin.

Originally Posted by hb

Then if I play the same scale but instead of starting on G, I start on another note of the G scale, what I have done is change "modes" but still playing the same scale including that one F#. Is this correct?
thanks,
hb

If I read you correctly, yes. So if you're in the key of G and you begin on G and play the major scale intervals, this is the G Ionian mode. If you begin on the A note, the second degree note from the root, and continue playing the G major scale intervals and end on the A note an octave later, you're playing the A Dorian mode. Basically think that you're playing the same intervals but you're just sliding the scale up one step. You would never skip the F# note if you're playing in the key of G major. Make sense or more confusing?

Steve

[hb]

I think I'm clear now...a "mode" is basically a way to play a paticular scale...start on a note other than the root note and you are playing a different mode of that scale? If I am correct here.....what the heck are these modes for, anyway?????
Thanks for your patience!
hb

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by hb

I think I'm clear now...a "mode" is basically a way to play a paticular scale...start on a note other than the root note and you are playing a different mode of that scale? If I am correct here.....what the heck are these modes for, anyway?????
Thanks for your patience!
hb

Yep, you're getting it. What the heck are they for?? Just fun and something different to do/a different way of looking at theory. It's fun to see how different parts of theory turn around and really the same thing as another part of theory. Some ways just speak more loudly than other ways to different people.

Steve

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by hb

I think I'm clear now...a "mode" is basically a way to play a paticular scale...start on a note other than the root note and you are playing a different mode of that scale? If I am correct here.....what the heck are these modes for, anyway?????
Thanks for your patience!
hb

What are they for?
They create music with a very distinct mood. Listen to the difference between a song in C major (C Ionian) and one in A minor (A Aeolian). Even though they have the same notes, they sound VERY different.
Major keys are great for expressing strength, joy, hope, etc.
(e.g. All you need is Love, Happy Birthday)
Minor keys are great for expressing sadness, calmness, etc.
(e.g., While my Guitar gently weeps, The House of the Rising Sun)

[hb]

Point taken, Fretsource.....makes sense. I have always thought of songs as "keys" and not "modes" , but I guess in a round-a-bout way they're kinda equivalant.
Thanks for all the replies....the forest is getting thinner as I am starting to see a few trees.
hb

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by hb

I have always thought of songs as "keys" and not "modes" , but I guess in a round-a-bout way they're kinda equivalant.

hb

That's right - They're more or less equivalent.
Strictly speaking, the mode of a song refers to the arrangement of the tones and semitones, (such as TTSTTTS = major or Ionian) and the key refers to the pitch of the main note (key note).

So when we say a song is in the key of C major, it really means, the KEY note is C and the MODE is major (or, Ionian)

That's why it's called a KEY - when we apply that strict order of tones and semitones of the mode to any starting note, it UNLOCKS the whole SCALE of notes, giving us the key note and mode.

So if you take the major mode (Ionian mode) which is always TTSTTTS and apply it to any note, say F, it UNLOCKS the series of notes F G A Bb C D E F - and that is the F MAJOR scale (or F Ionian mode) and if we compose music using those notes around the main note F, we get music in the KEY of F MAJOR

Nowadays we just call the modes either major or minor when talking about keys. We don't usually say a song is in the key of F Ionian, we just say it's in the key of F major.

Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian are major modes
Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian are minor modes
Locrian is an exception and was never part of the key system.

Modes still get called by their old names (Ionian, Dorian etc.) when used as melodies for improvising, as in Steve's very informative lesson on modes.

[hb]

Thanks for the explanation. As one of 1+ years of trying to play the guitar and have never been a student of music, should one dwell on this, i.e."mode", or just accept it as a part of music and go on. If I interpret Kirk correctly, his theory of semi-tone between the 3 & 4 and the 7 & 1 is all that is needed. It seems like a lot of things in life, sometimes, the "keep it simple, stupid" seems to be the best approach! Any thoughts?
thanks for the help,
hb

[Kirk Lorange]

Hi, hb ... you may find it reassuring to know that even though I spelled all those modes out for you in the scale-clock post, I have never, ever, consciously thought about or followed any modes in all my years of playing. If you're thinking chords and melody, they take care of themselves. The study of chords is really the study of modes, so my advice, as always, is to put your time and energy into chords.

If I interpret Kirk correctly, his theory of semi-tone between the 3 & 4 and the 7 & 1 is all that is needed.

I don't think I've ever made out it's that simple, hb. That's just the best way to remember the major scale, but, as you know, I'm not a scale thinker. The reason you should really know that one scale is that everything in music comes from it and everything can be compared to it.

[hb]

Yes, I definitly over-simplified your approach. I was referring to the fact that in different modes the tone/semitone intervals keeps changing and I think I've got enough to try to learn right now. It is truely music to mly ears that you have never purposly used modes. If good music can be made without much knowledge of these, it'll be something I can store away for future studying. But what I've have learned has been interesting.
Thanks for the help.
hb

[AX7221]

I just wanted to add one more thing. (again correct me if im wrong) It's not simply which note you start on, like i can play some quick little notes at the beginning (as the chord progession is finishing up before repeating) then on the first beat of the progression i will play my root. And there are a lot of different things that will effect what the listener will think is the root. Mainly i modulate on just the first beat of a measure (maybe the 3rd in std time) but if i try to do it on the 2nd or 4th it won't sound like i've played a new root. What i'm getting at is if you simply think to yourself all i have to do is pick a new "first" note in the middle of a solo the listener might not hear it as being a new root.

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by hb

Yes, I definitly over-simplified your approach. I was referring to the fact that in different modes the tone/semitone intervals keeps changing and I think I've got enough to try to learn right now. It is truely music to mly ears that you have never purposly used modes. If good music can be made without much knowledge of these, it'll be something I can store away for future studying. But what I've have learned has been interesting.
Thanks for the help.
hb

I didn't get back to see the final few posts on this thread (up to now. It's seems fairly complete, though).

Anyway, I just wanted to say, yep, you got it. Keep it simple. Modes and intervals and scale talk are just examples of theory. Theory doesn't make any music, you do. Theory is only a way of learning how to communicate what you hear.

Steve

[Smurf42]

OK.....you folks have officially fried my poor mind........*sigh*

BUT....I have also learned some things, so Thank You all for that!

[stringslinger]

I haven't read all the replies, mainly cause I don't have the time too, so if this is already said, sorry.

You need to understand that a note has a different "role" to play depending on its background!

IF you want a major sound, then take a C major scale and play it over a C major chord! Thinking... C (C, E, G).

IF you want minor tonality then play an A minor scale over an A minor chord and concentrate on thinking in A minor (A, C, E).

SO... C, E and G would represent the root, 3rd and 5th of the C major scale and go nicely over C major. You'll want to hang on these notes alot. A, C and E are the notes of the A minor chord, root, 3rd and 5th of the A minor scale and you'll want to hang on them alot. These are all notes of the C major or A minor scale, but because you are playing them on a different backdrop (chord, keyboard, bass, whatever...) then they will sound different.

You will play over an A minor chord differently than C in that the root is A and you need to frequently visit this note during a solo to make that solo fit well.

hope this helps some.

[Chomsky]

The only thing I know is I hate Modes. Dont think about them, dont even get to know them by their greek names. I beat myself up for months learning the Major scales and then had to learn the INVERSION of a major scale or a MODE. What you are doing is just moving up the major scale one or more steps depending on the mode your looking at. In the Key of C major, as everyone likes, we might start on the 6th or Aeolian, which is A and still play through the C Major scale, A to A. Each mode covers the chromatic scale. They are a DERIVATIVE of the "parent" or Major scale. Get to know all the Major scales. The modes follow those scales, same fingering pattern, just move up a step for Dorian or more for the mode you are looking for. And remember most of the Major scales are movable. Thinking of a mode as a derivative of a major scale is quite easy if you know how to play movable major scales and can name each note played. For example, in the key of E major, the 3rd is G#, if you play the E Major scale starting on the G# and ending on G#, then you just played G# Phrygian mode. You didnt have to learn any new scales and you can impress all your friends by wailing through all the modes of a key without actually doing anything new. When you get into Parallel modes and Altered Scales, then you'll have to start paying attention, but that is a few years down the road when you have already memorized and can play the Major scales backwards and forwards and sideways if need be. They are not that hard and if you follow the "clock" and all the info Kirk has here, nothing will be a suprise to you. I know I didnt add much to what was already here, but just wanted to let everyone know how simple and easy modes can be. I still hate them, but they can be useful. Just dont get caught up in the names.