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Forum Home > Guitar For Beginners & Beyond General Forum > The Workings Of Music > Relative Minors


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Old December 17th, 2005
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ethic ethic is offline
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Relative Minors

I'm just wondering, what makes a song in the key of G rather
than the key of E minor? I mean, they're the same notes and
everything (right?), but *why* is it considered to be in G?

I'm not understanding this whole Relative Minor thing...

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Old January 19th, 2006
RockaBilly RockaBilly is offline
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Quite all right.

I found my notes and you're right. It's their functions that differs not the triads themselves. So much for the memory and I think it's time to retire from theory. Now I'll just play with my guitar and leave the lessons to you. So pick a riff!

EDIT: Got a question. I know there's 2 methods to the modes, inversion method and modulation method. Does that make sense to you? What I posted were the inversion method but I'm not sure what the modulation method really means. Altering the scale?

Thanks

(your humble student lol)

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Old January 20th, 2006
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ethic ethic is offline
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Sorry, this is a lot to absorb. But what exactly is a mode?

Quote:
The modes of C major

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Old January 20th, 2006
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A mode is just starting on a different note than the root of a key. ie start with D run up the scale till you hit the next D so 7 notes in the C scale = 7 modes.

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Old January 20th, 2006
RockaBilly RockaBilly is offline
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Right and D becomes the tonic instead of C but the key signature (no sharps nor flats) will be the same. If you played E to E in the C major scale you've played E Phrygian mode and E is the tonic. The tonic also known as the root is what the music revolves around. You start on the tonic and end on the tonic but that's not always the case.

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Old January 20th, 2006
Neilsonite Neilsonite is offline
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Hi again,

ethic - I have not idea what your current level of understanding theory is, but I would suggest that you only need to look at modes if you already understand:

1. How notes work (i.e. being able to find any note on the guitar, knowing the distance between all the natural notes, understanding sharps and flats)
2. How intervals work (i.e. the distance between all the natural intervals, understanding sharp and flat intervals, finding interval distances on the guitar from any root)

Once you understand these things, it's a good idea to look at major scale theory (in particular how chords are formed from the major scale), and then, if you're interested, the modes and other scales. These things are really easy (as easy as counting to 7) once you know your notes and intervals, and seriously confusing before that.

If you're in the boat of needing to understand these, don't worry, I'm in the process of preparing some info on notes and intervals, and it'll be up soon.

In the meanwhile, RockaBilly you're right that there are two main ways of thinking about the modes, and IMHO the second one is much more useful...

Modal Approach #1 - 'Days of the Week'

This is essentially what RockaBilly and allthumbs described... Let's say we're looking at the C major scale: C-D-E-F-G-A-B. Imagine that each of the 7 notes of the major scale is a day of the week:

- C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C would be Monday to Monday
- D-E-E-G-A-B-C-D would be Tuesday to Tuesday
- E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E would be Wednesday to Wednesday, and so on

These are the modes of major scale. There are 7 of them, one for each note. Each has a Greek name that makes the whole idea sound much more complicated than it really is...

1. Ionian (aka the mode starting on the first note of the major scale, which makes it just the major scale!)
2. Dorian (aka the mode starting on the second note of the major scale)
3. Phrygian (aka the mode starting on the third note of the major scale)
4. Lydian (aka the mode starting on the fourth note of the major scale)
5. Mixolydian (aka the mode starting on the fifth note of the major scale)
6. Aeolian (aka the mode starting on the sixth note of the major scale, aka the Natural Minor scale)
7. Locrian (aka the mode starting on the seventh note of the major scale)

Really, IMHO this way doesn't tell you much about anything, it';s just a stepping stone to...

Modal Approach #2 - 'Scale Formulas'

If you look at the distance between the notes in each mode, you'll find that they all have a unique sequence of intervals. You need to understand note distances and intervals clearly, or you won't get this - if you don't I'll have a lesson up soon

Here is a list of all the possible intervals in one octave, each separated by a semitone:

1 b2 2 b3 3 4 #4/b5 5 b6 6 b7 7 8

Now, since you know the distance between each natural note (all are a tone apart, except for E-F and B-C, which are a semitone apart), you just need to line up the notes in each mode along this list of intervals...

EDIT: Formatting didn't work, see the attached pdf file, which should work!

So, each mode has a unique interval structure. Once you learn the formula for each mode, you can apply them wherever you like. Notice that the Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian all contain 1-3-5, and thus produce major chords? The Dorian, Phrygian, and Aeolian all contain 1-b3-5, so they all produce minor chords... The Locrian contains a 1-b3-b5, so it produces a diminished chord. The extensions (2, 4, and 6) are different for each mode, so make sure you memorize those as well.

I've gotta go, but I'll talk more about how you use this info later...
James
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Modes.pdf (14.3 KB, 43 views)

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Old January 21st, 2006
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namiguShin namiguShin is offline
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"Inversion method and modulation method"

I was just wondering are those the "official" names for the ways you look at modes, or you just made them up, RockaBilly? I mean, I haven't seen James using those terms so I don't know if they exist in music theory?

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Old January 21st, 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namiguShin
"Inversion method and modulation method"

I was just wondering are those the "official" names for the ways you look at modes, or you just made them up, RockaBilly? I mean, I haven't seen James using those terms so I don't know if they exist in music theory?
James did a long post in this thread describing modulations and concurred with RB on the two methods. I don't bother with modes myself,but I have run into the term modulation used with them many times. I haven't heard of the inversion method though,but that may be as James says the modulation method is more common.

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Old January 22nd, 2006
Neilsonite Neilsonite is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namiguShin
"Inversion method and modulation method"

I was just wondering are those the "official" names for the ways you look at modes, or you just made them up, RockaBilly? I mean, I haven't seen James using those terms so I don't know if they exist in music theory?
Hi, the terms 'inversion' and 'modulation' are pretty widely used musical terms, but I haven't come across those as 'official' names for modal thinking... That doesn't mean they aren't official terms, though, as I haven't come across any other official names, either!

The names do make sense, although I think in many cases the fewer new terms introduced with each topic the better...
'Inversion' basically means a re-ordering of a group of notes (like the 'days of the week' approach).
'Modulation' refers to a change in tonality, like the difference between two modes that aren't based on the same parent mode, e.g. C Dorian and D Ionian (so you mainly think about the 'scale formulas' to keep track of what notes to use).

Anyway, I didn't want to be placing so much emphasis on understanding the modes, as they aren't essential, and for most people any theory-related effort would IMHO be much better spent learning the locations of notes and interval shapes and chords on the neck...

James

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