[Hey]

Ok, Im back, and have some more questions about scales...

Lets say your playing this scale, c major pentectoinc scale according to my terrible scale book...:

-------------
-----------1-
-------2-0---
---2-0------
-3----------
------------

then you play this:

------------
-----------2---
-------3-1----
---3-1---------
-4------------
-----------------

I moved it up one threat... so is this a c minor now? Im confused. And if I move it up again, then what will it be?(im useing the same position) Is there some kind of "order" of keys i need to go by, like after c its always D?im not sure... Please help, thanks...

And yes, Im planning to buy more books soon, but in the mean time I got some scales I want to learn and study first.

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by Ledhead V-2

...They then go on to list, in order of importance: A minor pentatonic, A major pentatonic, A blues, A major scale, and A natural minor.

I can actually agree with that. But I also completely agree with Kirk. See the thing is that many guitarist tend to treat scales like they are the be-all of learning to be some sort of guitar god. They are really only tools in the tool box; a collection or a pool of tones from which to draw...

I agree with this assessment that these are the really best and basic scales to know in order to play some lead. This is how I basically learned. But this is not the end of the story...

The beginning of the story, imho, needs to be learning chords and the chord shapes that are available. This much is the mechanical aspect of learning. Then comes some theory, and it really needs to start with the major scale--all the other scales and all of music are written from this basic blueprint! When you understand the major scale and it's intervals you can see how all else is born from that mold.

This point of view of scales in itself should be viewed as tools in the tool box, but to lean on them only is very limiting. This is where Plane Talk and the view that the tones to use come from chords very much so complements the scale view!

Many players have only concentrated on playing scales and have gotten lost. Chord tone thinking is the ultimate complement to scales because of the way that the guitar fretboard is mapped. In our modern- western-musical world, the guitar is primarily a chordal instrument for the majority of us! The tones to play can easily be found from the chords.

Steve

[Ledhead V-2]

Originally Posted by solidwalnut

I can actually agree with that. But I also completely agree with Kirk. See the thing is that many guitarist tend to treat scales like they are the be-all of learning to be some sort of guitar god. They are really only tools in the tool box; a collection or a pool of tones from which to draw...

I agree with this assessment that these are the really best and basic scales to know in order to play some lead. This is how I basically learned. But this is not the end of the story...

The beginning of the story, imho, needs to be learning chords and the chord shapes that are available. This much is the mechanical aspect of learning. Then comes some theory, and it really needs to start with the major scale--all the other scales and all of music are written from this basic blueprint! When you understand the major scale and it's intervals you can see how all else is born from that mold.

This point of view of scales in itself should be viewed as tools in the tool box, but to lean on them only is very limiting. This is where Plane Talk and the view that the tones to use come from chords very much so complements the scale view!

Many players have only concentrated on playing scales and have gotten lost. Chord tone thinking is the ultimate complement to scales because of the way that the guitar fretboard is mapped. In our modern- western-musical world, the guitar is primarily a chordal instrument for the majority of us! The tones to play can easily be found from the chords.

Steve

Great advice. Maybe you should change your handle from solidwalnut to the walnutty professor (I mean that in a good way of course); you really seem to know your stuff. Instead of concentrating on learning a lot of scales, which might turn out to be a waste of precious time, maybe I'll just learn those few that GW recommends and take it from there. Another thing I need to do is spend more time learning chords. But in all honesty, I loathe trying to learn chords as I find it hard enough to get my fingers into position just to play one simple chord; never mind switching from one chord to another. Some folks seem to be able to do this effortlessly. Me? I can run my fingers up and down the fretboard picking notes at a pretty good clip, but chords frustrate the hell out of me. It may also be why I'm leaning towards learning blues as most of the players seem to pick notes almost exclusively and rarely, if ever, play chords. I mean, I can't ever recall seeing BB King (or that many other bluesmen for that matter) actually playing a chord...

[blackcat]

Yet again a thread that has me thinking!
I actually enjoy learning music theory,sad as i might be, but after reading this thread i'm wondering if it is all really neccessary.there are so many different views on this that is difficult to know which path to follow.

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by blackcat

Yet again a thread that has me thinking!
I actually enjoy learning music theory,sad as i might be, but after reading this thread i'm wondering if it is all really neccessary.there are so many different views on this that is difficult to know which path to follow.

Well whatever path you follow, the music theory won't change. If you enjoy learning theory, then learn it. You'll find it easy to learn (because you enjoy it) and you'll often find it very useful in a lot of situations. It's a huge subject, though, so my advice is that you keep it relevant and related to the type of guitarist you are. For example, if you're not into jazz, then memorising all those fancy sounding jazz modes, such as the "lydian dominant" or the "super locrian" would be pretty much a waste of time.

[blackcat]

Thanks for your answer fretsource,i certainly enjoy not only learning to read music, but the theory of how melodies are created and chord progressions,what i am a little unsure of is ,after reading this thread, do i actually need to learn scales or just how they work.
There are so many sites , and if like me you are continually searching for info, the advice on those sites differ greatly. For beginners it is a minefield of right or wrong.
Or is it, as i suspect, a matter of what you find easier for you.

[Fretsource]

I know what you mean Black cat. The Internet is the greatest source of MISinformation ever invented.
So I'd say - Yes - you should learn ABOUT scales as part of your music theory study. That's useful because the more you understand how scales work, (either from theory or from experience) the more easily you can see through that swamp of misinformation that's out there and decide for yourself which direction to follow.
As for them being necessary to learn, there's no need to search the net for that, Kirk is living proof that you don't actually need scales to be a highly accomplished improviser. Case closed.
As for them being useful to learn, I think everybody agrees that some of them certainly are. For example I can't see anyone advising not to learn the major scale. But to what extent all the others should be learned/ memorised/ practised is something each guitarist has to decide based on what they intend to do with them.

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by blackcat

Thanks for your answer fretsource,i certainly enjoy not only learning to read music, but the theory of how melodies are created and chord progressions,what i am a little unsure of is ,after reading this thread, do i actually need to learn scales or just how they work.
There are so many sites , and if like me you are continually searching for info, the advice on those sites differ greatly. For beginners it is a minefield of right or wrong.
Or is it, as i suspect, a matter of what you find easier for you.

It's amazing that there is so much info out on the 'net. No doubt it's confusing. Being able to communicate how to play the git is one thing, but then there's the aspect that there's no right way to learn. There are paths, and to determine the 'correct' path is not going to happen. It's almost a matter of 'experimentation' and, dare I say it, some sort of trust.

I guess I'm a little biased, but I really believe that to avoid confusion we contributors here at GfB&B will give you all the info you need! If it's not there, please just ask. We'll get ya going in a good direction. Tell us what you want to learn!

Steve

[Chris C]

Originally Posted by blackcat

.....do i actually need to learn scales or just how they work.

There are so many sites , and if like me you are continually searching for info, the advice on those sites differ greatly. For beginners it is a minefield of right or wrong.
Or is it, as i suspect, a matter of what you find easier for you.

+1 to what Fretsource said about learning scales. It certainly useful to understand what scales are and how they can be used musically, but there's certainly no need to bash your way through heaps of them just for the sake of it. (Unless you enjoy doing set exercises - and some people do, some don't. Some students work best with a very formal and structured approach and find it very off-putting if everything is too open ended and free-form, but others are the exact opposite and find too much structure oppressive. So it's probably good to try both and settle for something that suits our own individual character).

Drilling your fingers through scales and exercises is a bit like drilling a squad of soldiers. There can certainly be some disciplinary spin-offs in marching up and down a parade ground in formation, but the real work of soldiers is to go into battle. And battle doesn't bear much resemblance to parade ground drill - it doesn't happen neatly in line order.

My approach to scales is that I'm prepared to run through a few in 'line order' only for as long as it takes me to start getting a feel for where the notes in the group are located. Then I'm straight into experimenting with what I can actually DO with them - what they sound like in various arrangements or combinations, etc.

Scales are just another line of possible ingredients on a shelf. It's what you cook with them that matters.

Sorry, that's enough mixed metaphors for one post!

Cheers,

Chris

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by Chris C

Drilling your fingers through scales and exercises is a bit like drilling a squad of soldiers. There can certainly be some disciplinary spin-offs in marching up and down a parade ground in formation, but the real work of soldiers is to go into battle. And battle doesn't bear much resemblance to parade ground drill - it doesn't happen neatly in line order.

That must be the best musical metaphor I've ever heard.

[Chris C]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

That must be the best musical metaphor I've ever heard.

Thanks for the kind words mate. I think my soldiers need to be dragged off the computer keyboard and marched up and down the fretboard a bit more instead though. Less dreaming up metaphors and more twanging of the strings. My resolution for this year was less posting and more practice. But I think I've used up a few months allowance in advance already though...

[blackcat]

Thanks to you all for your input,i shall take it on board.
I've said it before and i'll say it again, i think i have learnt more since being a member of this site, than i ever expected and it's thanks to people like yourselves.
It is very much appreciated.
Keith(blackcat)

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by Ledhead V-2

Great advice. Maybe you should change your handle from solidwalnut to the walnutty professor (I mean that in a good way of course)...

Thanks Led, much appreciated. The Walnutty Professor has a definite geeky ring to it that I like!

Originally Posted by Ledhead V-2

But in all honesty, I loathe trying to learn chords as I find it hard enough to get my fingers into position just to play one simple chord; never mind switching from one chord to another. Some folks seem to be able to do this effortlessly. Me? I can run my fingers up and down the fretboard picking notes at a pretty good clip, but chords frustrate the hell out of me. It may also be why I'm leaning towards learning blues as most of the players seem to pick notes almost exclusively and rarely, if ever, play chords. I mean, I can't ever recall seeing BB King (or that many other bluesmen for that matter) actually playing a chord...

Yah, chords are more difficult to form than a single note or two, that's for sure. Well, you don't have to beat yourself over the head about it or anything like that. Although chords formations are important to learn, it doesn't mean you have to play them all the time if that's not your cup of tea. But, spending time learning about them and learning how to play them and adding them to your bag of tricks would be important.

Here's a quick breakdown of the chord formations to get a hold of, and then the rest will be 'icing on the cake':

• All CAGED chords (there'll be an upcoming complete lesson on all of this, but it's just not quite ready!) The layout of the fretboard is in five connected, moveable chord formations:

• C, A, G, E and D. The open chords themselves in the 'first position' (within the first three frets), and then realize that each one of these chords create the major moveable chord formations up the neck. Regardless of where you begin on the neck and no matter which formation you choose first, the formations are always linked in this order as they go up the fretboard. CAGED, AGEDC, GEDCA, EDCAG, DCAGE.

.......1.......2.....3......4......5......6......7.......8......9......10.....11....12......13....14

E ||-----|----|--x-|----|-----|----|-----|--x--|-----|-----|----|--x--|----|----|
B ||--x--|----|----|----|--x--|----|-----|--x--|-----|-----|----|-----|--x-|----|
G ||-----|----|----|----|--x--|----|-----|-----|--x--|-----|----|--x--|----|----|
D ||-----|--x-|----|----|--x--|----|-----|-----|-----|--x--|----|-----|----|----|
A ||-----|----|--x-|----|-----|----|--x--|-----|-----|--x--|----|-----|----|----|
E ||-----|----|--x-|----|-----|----|-----|--x--|-----|-----|----|-----|----|----|

Just begin with the open C chord in the first three frets. All the rest of the chords shown that are connected to each other are the C chords that you find on the neck in each of these five formations.

To see how they're connected, take a look at this graphic:



This graphic is from Kirk's lesson, Anatomy of a C Major Guitar Chord. This lesson does a great job explaining this idea.

Notice how the forms overlap, or are connected to each other, C, A, G, E and D. If you spend time seeing and feeling how these are connected, it will open many doors for you. You don't have to necessarily learn how to make each of these formations. As a matter of fact, you may only want to learn each of them in a partial formation. But regardless of what you decide about them, you'll want to understand this universal truth about fretboard theory.

And even BB knows this stuff, I can almost be sure. I suppose that many bluesman learning to play don't necessarily know this stuff, but you can bet that one of the best bluesmen out there, Eric Clapton, does!

This is how tones can be recognized by the guitarist. Hand in hand with a little scale theory and Plane Talk, you can learn to be a dangerous guitarist!

Steve

[Ledhead V-2]

Excellent. I'm copying this now...

again, thanks for your help, SW.