[marinoFret]

Two months ago I discovered "Improvising".
When I first tried to improvise something with minor pentatonic scale, it sounded dull and stupid. As the time was passing, I was getting better and better......

Here's my problem:
I like improvising so much that everything I play is improvised, I improvise all the time! I stopped focusing on learning songs.

Is this wrong?!
My father complains me that I don't learn songs..... but I like the improvising better. My mother really likes my songs (I mean what I improvise while I'm playing in the living room)...

Should I focus on making my own songs, or on learning songs?

Thanks for help!

[Hey]

Do both

I tend to flip- flop. I'll go hard at improvising for a week or two then feel I need a bit of structure and go back to learning songs. When I'm learning songs I try to do 2-3 of the same kind (ie flatpicking, or alternating bass fingerstyle or whatever)in quick succession. Thereare real lessons to be learned in pulling apart pieces that you know work and finding what makes tham tick. If I do just improv stuff I find I gradually get into a rut.

[Hey]

Originally Posted by BuddyManx

I tend to flip- flop. I'll go hard at improvising for a week or two then feel I need a bit of structure and go back to learning songs. When I'm learning songs I try to do 2-3 of the same kind (ie flatpicking, or alternating bass fingerstyle or whatever)in quick succession. Thereare real lessons to be learned in pulling apart pieces that you know work and finding what makes tham tick. If I do just improv stuff I find I gradually get into a rut.

When you practise, you dont need to do one at a time. For example, when I practise, it goes something like this:

Play a couple songs that use all of my fingers to warm up my fingers(bare fingered)
Play some scales up the neck to practise accrasy(with pick)
Practise songs(with finger picks)
Learn new songs/scales
Then maybe make up some or practise some slide or just play more songs for fun...

Im not seeing really your problem here, I mean the way I see it, just practise both. And dont just study one thing one week, then do something different the next, try to mix it up more. Like when you practise, do some strummings songs, some picking songs, some improvising stuff and maybe some slide if you do slide. Practise with finger picks, with out, with a pick, etc. Because when you perform, you want to have a variety when you play, keeps people intersted.

Also remember, when you learn a song/scale, try to practis at it LEAST every other day, so it just wont fade away from you so you wont just keep learning songs and forgetting songs. Try to get them down and keep them down if you know what I mean.

[GT]

Well, i think you should try both if you are a beginner. But if you ask me i really would start with a song already created to practice over it. This will give you CONFIDENCE on your playing and an structured solid playing. This should be done ONLY when you are fully studied the theory lessons After this, as Kirk said, youll gonna have tons of those little bits of LICKS on your guitar playing, and then with the proper skills you can walk down to the valley of improvisation with a more stronger arsenal.
Do both but playing covers gonna give you an standard reference point of were you are now on the guitar world.... Are you still with the "Smell like teen spirit solo"? Have you jumped to Metallica´s "Nothing Else Matter´s" solo or are you still on the "Stairway to Heaven" period?

Something like that

[Chris C]

The more I think about this, the more I keep coming back to one thing - it actually doesn't matter much what route you take just so long as you keep going.

Ask 20 guitarists what precise order they learned in, and how they went about studying and practice, and you'll get 20 different answers.

But ask 20 people who gave up playing why they stopped and mostly you'll find that it was for the same reason - their motivation to keep going just dried up.

So I have no rules or timetables about what I must do each day, or for how long. I have only one rule - keep playing, and keep enjoying it. And if that means 5 hours of improvising for every 1 hour of more rigidly structured work, then so be it. My ears tell me it's working. And that's all that matters to me.

Cheers,

Chris

[zappa]

its true although you should never underestimate the power of the noodle .

[Ledhead V-2]

I practice both learning songs and improvising equally. I'll spend some time adding a few more chords or notes to the tune I'm currently attempting to get down and for a change of pace I'll alternate and give a go at making up my own riffs. Problem is, when I think I've got a nice little riff or solo worked out, it never seems to sound rock-like, which is what I'm aiming for -- they always seem to wind up sounding really cornball, "Jimmy Crack Corn"-ish if you will. Anyone here know what I'm talking about, or do y'all think ol' Led's been bending his elbow before posting? Any advice on working out riffs, however short, that have a distict rock or blues feel to them? All input appreciated...

[Chris C]

Originally Posted by Ledhead V-2

Problem is, when I think I've got a nice little riff or solo worked out, it never seems to sound rock-like, which is what I'm aiming for -- they always seem to wind up sounding really cornball, "Jimmy Crack Corn"-ish if you will.

Great description! I think that most of us have had a dose of "Jimmy Crack Corn Syndrome at some time or another... Nothing wrong with the melody really, except that you can just hear you old auntie saying "That's a nice tune dear.. " or imagine it turning up on some easy listening compilation.

I believe that there is a known set of steps that you need to go through which involves shooting a man in Memphis, having your Baby do you wrong, walking the lonesome railroad tracks, drinking a lot of bad moonshine whisky, and so on. But it's a slow process.

My guess is that a quicker way is to take the same notes and play around with the timing and the attack and punch you give various sections. I'd reckon that somebody like Kirk could take the same tune and make it sound very different just by changing the playing style.

Effects can also help put you in the right mood to swing it, rock it or whatever. I once recorded a classically trained friend playing a very precise and quite intricate version of "Danny Boy" and then we spent a happy half hour putting it through various effects channels in the mixer. Amazing how different it could end up sounding.

A good exercise might be to take one simple tune and see how many different ways you can play it. Take something as easy and ingrained as Twinkle Twinkle Little Star (or whatever simple song you know well) and improvise with it - rock it up, do a reggae version, a Country version, etc. Blow it up into classical version (Mozart used the Twinkle Twinkle melody), just muck around until you get a feel for what it is that makes something sound bluesy or countryish or whatever. I think it's probably in the swing and rhythm more than the notes themselves, but then I'm no expert. I might just try it though and see if I can make something sound completely different just by the way it's played.

What do others here think makes the difference???

Cheers,

Chris

[Ledhead V-2]

Originally Posted by Chris C

Great description! I think that most of us have had a dose of "Jimmy Crack Corn Syndrome at some time or another... Nothing wrong with the melody really, except that you can just hear you old auntie saying "That's a nice tune dear.. " or imagine it turning up on some easy listening compilation.

I believe that there is a known set of steps that you need to go through which involves shooting a man in Memphis, having your Baby do you wrong, walking the lonesome railroad tracks, drinking a lot of bad moonshine whisky, and so on. But it's a slow process.

My guess is that a quicker way is to take the same notes and play around with the timing and the attack and punch you give various sections. I'd reckon that somebody like Kirk could take the same tune and make it sound very different just by changing the playing style.

Effects can also help put you in the right mood to swing it, rock it or whatever. I once recorded a classically trained friend playing a very precise and quite intricate version of "Danny Boy" and then we spent a happy half hour putting it through various effects channels in the mixer. Amazing how different it could end up sounding.

A good exercise might be to take one simple tune and see how many different ways you can play it. Take something as easy and ingrained as Twinkle Twinkle Little Star (or whatever simple song you know well) and improvise with it - rock it up, do a reggae version, a Country version, etc. Blow it up into classical version (Mozart used the Twinkle Twinkle melody), just muck around until you get a feel for what it is that makes something sound bluesy or countryish or whatever. I think it's probably in the swing and rhythm more than the notes themselves, but then I'm no expert. I might just try it though and see if I can make something sound completely different just by the way it's played.

What do others here think makes the difference???

Cheers,

Chris

Bingo! Exactly what I'm talking about: my licks come out sounding like something my dear old auntie (my dear old dead auntie) would think are..."nice, not like that god-awful rock 'n' roll nonsense all these hooligans play today." And I really don't feel like taking the Eric Clapton "I-had-to-get-myself-hooked-on-heroin-to-really-learn-the-blues" route to learning either. I have no illusions of becoming the next SRV or Buddy Guy, I'd just like to learn how to improvise a few relatively easy riffs and short solos -- nothing killer that's going to knock everyone's socks off necessarily.

Your advice about timing and giving punch to notes is precisely what I've been giving more attention to just lately -- rather than trying to pick a bunch of no-flavor notes as fast as I can. I've been trying to incorporate bends, pull-ons and -offs, slides, vibrato, etc. more into my improvisions. Although I really don't have much access to any effects mixers or such (I own a starter Epiphone LP Jr. and a 15-watt Marshall practice amp) -- not even a wah pedal as of yet -- I will take the advice you offered and see if that won't help to add some pepper to my sorry solos.

Hey! Who knows...maybe if all this bums me out enough, I'll really get the blues and I'll wind up playing like Muddy Waters and Leadbelly in no time flat!...wutcha think?

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by Ledhead V-2

Hey! Who knows...maybe if all this bums me out enough, I'll really get the blues and I'll wind up playing like Muddy Waters and Leadbelly in no time flat!...wutcha think?

Hehe, exactly what's needed for great songwriters.

Along the same lines as what Chris is talking about, it's pretty important to feel the groove of the song and play within the rhythm and emphasis of the groove.

Steve

[marinoFret]

Originally Posted by GT

Are you still with the "Smell like teen spirit solo"? Have you jumped to Metallica´s "Nothing Else Matter´s" solo or are you still on the "Stairway to Heaven" period?

I can play NEM's solo easily...

[Ledhead V-2]

Originally Posted by Chris C

And along the way you 'discover' quite a few familiar songs too.

I'm glad someone mentioned this. I myself "discovered" (stumbled upon) the intros to "Heartbreak Hotel", "Catscratch Fever", and "Sunshine of Your Love" while noodling. Thought I was being very original and then it would gradually dawn on me: Hey, I think I've heard this somewhere before...

[Stratrat]

Originally Posted by Ledhead V-2

....rather than trying to pick a bunch of no-flavor notes as fast as I can. I've been trying to incorporate bends, pull-ons and -offs, slides, vibrato, etc. more into my improvisions...

Don't forget to think about phrasing as you're playing also. Sometimes what you DON'T play is just as important as what you DO play. Give your licks some breathing room here and there.

Think about listening to somebody talk.....if they just drone on and on endlessly in the same monotone without pausing, it'll put you to sleep in no time. If they punctuate their speech with pauses, emphasis, changes of inflection, tone and speed, it makes it much more interesting. Combine that with the above techniques you mentioned and you'll probably find much more interesting sounds.

[Ledhead V-2]

Originally Posted by Stratrat

Don't forget to think about phrasing as you're playing also. Sometimes what you DON'T play is just as important as what you DO play. Give your licks some breathing room here and there.

Think about listening to somebody talk.....if they just drone on and on endlessly in the same monotone without pausing, it'll put you to sleep in no time. If they punctuate their speech with pauses, emphasis, changes of inflection, tone and speed, it makes it much more interesting. Combine that with the above techniques you mentioned and you'll probably find much more interesting sounds.

Timely and excellent advice. Til just recently, I was incorporating bends, slides, hammers, etc, w/o giving any consideration whatsoever to pauses and pace -- just picking notes as fast as possible. It does sound rather bland. But hey, I am learning...

[benji07]

I think it's even more useful to improvise then just learning things from a book or learning song.
Everything comes more from yourself if you just improvise.